Urthboy, aka Elefant Traks boss Tim Levinson.
Smokey’s Haunt
Urthboy
Elefant Traks
Out October 12
Touring from August 30
Has the internet turned activists into "slacktivists"? It's just one of the questions posed on
Smokey’s Haunt, the new album by the persistently provocative Urthboy.
"Kony 2012 is a perfect example," the Australian hip hop pioneer tells
Green Left. The online Kony campaign was seen by millions, but has so far failed in its goal to arrest Ugandan war criminal Joseph Kony.
"We exist online and virtual lives are really important, but they
also have this great limitation where there’s a massive amount of smug
communication that goes on - with good intentions, but without any kind
of measurable outcome," says the Blue Mountains-raised rapper.
"So people join up and they click on surveys and they ‘like’ things
and they get involved and they say to their followers and all the people
that are friends with them, ‘Look what I’m doing to fix this.’
Basically, we have arrived at a time where broadcasting who you are and
what you’re about is sometimes seen as more important than doing
anything about it."
Intellectual and activist Noam Chomsky noted the same phenomenon with
the Nuclear Freeze campaign in 1980. "The reason it collapsed is, it
wasn't based on anything," said Chomsky. "It was based on nothing except
people signing a petition."
But Urthboy, otherwise known as Elefant Traks label boss Tim
Levinson, is also an eternal optimist, refusing to see things simply as
bad.
"If people sign a petition and then are actively going expressing
their frustration, writing letters, the whole picture, that does change
things," he says.
His constant refusal to see things exclusively in black and white
tends to colour everything he does, from signing up Black artists to his
predominantly white label, to seeing the dark and light in any given
topic.
"The thing that has always been a part of the music that I make is an
attempt to somehow reconcile lightness and darkness," he says. "And
that manifests in politics, that manifests in personal interactions,
that manifests in, just, my observations. I always think that the best
kind of dark stories are always told with some sort of contrast with
light."
It can also be seen, literally, in the video for his album's lead
single, "Naive Bravado". The monochrome mini-movie, which tells a dark
tale of troubled teens getting into a knife fight, is permeated with
puffs of bright orange smoke.
"We wanted to have it black and white with these little flashes of colour to wake people up," he says.
"In a way, you’ve got sort of a very dark song, but I’ve written it
in such a way that I would hope it sounds bright and it sounds like it
wants to grab your attention."
The song's commercial chorus has certainly pricked up ears. It has a
more powerful hook than Olympic boxer Damien Hooper. The vocal comes
courtesy of R&B star Daniel Merriweather, whose life has also been a
journey from darkness to light. In Merriweather's Melbourne-based teens
he
barely escaped a prison term for assault.
"I’m a big fan of redemption," says Urthboy, who has rapped about the
pin inside his foot that proves his own teenaged "petty crime schemes".
"I think that any situation, no matter how dark, should be able to be
turned around at some point. You’ve got to hope that people have a
chance at redemption, because otherwise you have to give up on hope all
together. Dan Merriweather’s probably a great example of that - someone
who had a troubled background but has gone on to have a world-renowned
gift."
The same could be said for Elefant Traks' latest signing, Aboriginal rapper Sky'high.
"Sky’high is an outrageously talented vocalist," says Urthboy. "She
comes from a tough background which definitely informs what she talks
about and how she carries herself, but underneath that is actually just a
great artist. You can never predict the future so we can’t know that
she’s going to go on and become a massive artist, but at the same time
it’s my firm belief that that is there for her if she wants to take it."
Urthboy has written that
Indigenous rappers "may be the future" of Australian hip hop - and has put his money where his mouth is. The supporting artists on his forthcoming "Naive Bravado"
tour are almost all Aboriginal.
They include recent Elefant Traks signing The Last Kinection, who
have said they deliberately joined a non-Aboriginal label to try to
bridge the wide divide between Indigenous and non-Indigenous hip hop.
That division between black and white is predictably troubling for
Urthboy.
"It’s so bleeding obvious that there’s a real disparity there," he
says. "And a gap, which in some ways reflects the broader Australian
public. At the same time we have a strange and surreal manifestation of
the hip hop scene here where you have the majority of the artists being
white, which surely is a bit of an anomaly in the global culture of hip
hop.
"That’s not to say that those white artists don’t have a role, you
can’t look at these things so harshly, but at the same time it is as
clear as day to me that the stories that artists like Jimblah and the
Last Kinection have to tell are so important, beyond just the obvious
musicality and the great songs that they’re writing. They have an
importance that goes way beyond Australian audiences and it’s a story
that international audiences want to hear.
"Jimblah doesn’t make songs where you’re going getting pissed on a
Friday night with your buddies and wearing hoodies and jumping up in the
air and having barbecues and stuff, which is a lot of the kind of stuff
that is the most successful in Australia."
Urthboy has written how
"school never taught us about the real Aboriginal experience, or the real effects of colonisation". But when asked to name the books that taught him his country's real history, he declines.
"I’ve gotten a hell of a lot more understanding and experience from
talking to people and being involved on a person-to-person level than
from reading academic books," he says.
"For understanding and getting an idea of what it is like to walk
around a shop and be followed in every single shop that you go in
because you have a black skin and you’re an Aboriginal person, that
comes from talking to people and realising what are the little ways that
prejudice affects.
"That’s why I believe that much of the future will be Indigenous artists, because fundamentally we want to hear that story."
Hopefully that will mean more than just clicking "like" on a Facebook post about it.
WHY IT'S BLACK TO THE FUTURE FOR URTHBOY...
Urthboy said so many interesting things about Indigenous hip hop,
politics and refugees that we’ve reproduced the full, unedited Q&A
below. You can also download the mp3 of the interview here.
Please describe the making of the Naive Bravado video and the orange visual signature.
It wasn’t a massively significant part of the clip, but basically we
wanted to use that coloured smoke almost as if to symbolise the
negativity that was creeping into the decision-making processes of the
young kid and how that smoke was something that the big brother was also
involved with, so I guess the essence of that clip is around the idea
of the big brother being a bad influence on the younger brother and then
realising that his younger brother was looking after him and
recognising it and going to help his brother. So the smoke just
dissipates at the end where it exists in all these settings of trouble.
But, I mean, it’s not like that’s a massively important thing for people
to understand. That was just another little layer in that clip - and
also we wanted to have it black and white with these little flashes of
colour to wake people up.
Is it autobiographical about you and your brother, Matt, or have you invented these characters?
No, the actual story in the song is different to the clip. This was a
way of bringing the idea of that song to life. The actual story in the
song is really quite a different setting, but it is based on a true
story. It’s definitely written about someone, but it’s not myself. The
essence of the song is about the idea that sometimes people are needing
to have a boost in their own sense of themselves, you know, like a
confidence boost or something, that just puffs their chest out a little
bit in order for them to feel like their self-esteem can carry them
through a situation. It’s really talking about a young boy who’s been
disadvantaged from day one. And how you never really get a fair go when
you’re in that situation. And if faking it till you make it is a way of
taking yourself out of that situation, that constant cycle of
disadvantage, then, you know, I’m all for that.
Was your decision to team up with R&B star Daniel
Merriweather on Naive Bravado influenced by the fact that “he devoted
his pubescence to getting into all the trouble he could find [and] he
barely escaped a prison term for assault”, and the fact that you’ve had
similar troubled teens, having rapped about how you ended up with a pin
in your foot?
Not so much, no. I’m a big fan of redemption. I think that any
situation, no matter how dark, should be able to be turned around at
some point. You’ve got to hope that people have a chance at redemption,
because otherwise you have to give up on hope all together. Dan
Merriweather’s probably a great example of that - someone who had a
troubled background but has gone on to have a world-renowned gift. But
that wasn’t the reason why I got him involved in this song. I got him
involved in this song just because I respect his singing so much and the
kind of artist that he is.
You have made a brave musical departure with the single,
which has a very commercial sound. Will the album be more of the same,
musically? Did you feel you were taking a bit of a risk?
Yeah, I don’t really want to make music that doesn’t take a risk. And
his sound is very different to the rest of the record. But the spirit
behind that song - doing something that other people weren’t doing,
making music that doesn’t sound like the Hilltop Hoods or Illy or Drapht
or all these different acts, is something that I’m very proud of. Not
even proud of, but that is definitely part of my modus operandi. If I
was going to settle down and mimic all these other artists that are
doing well, I may as well quit. So Daniel Merriweather was really just
our absolute ideal vocalist for that song and it was a fluke that we
even got him to sing on the tune. So he did take my music somewhere else
and some fans that don’t quite understand, they hear it and it sounds a
little bit more commercial so they automatically assume that that’s
some sort of a sell-out. Well, a different tone of a vocal on a song
like that, I can understand. I guess I probably felt that way myself,
but ultimately we’re artists that have to live and die by our creative
decisions. You don’t really want to hold a little cage around yourself
as to what you can and can’t do. I hate to think that the possibilities
are limited. I don’t know whether it always sounds like the
possibilities are unlimited, but with the music I make, I definitely
aspire to that.
What lyrical themes are you tackling on the new album?
Really, I’m just concerned with life. The thing that has always been a
part of the music that I make is an attempt to somehow reconcile
lightness and darkness. And that manifests in politics, that manifests
in personal interactions, that manifests in, just, my observations. I
always think that the best kind of dark stories are always told with
some sort of contrast with light.
You’ve got to have dynamics.
Yeah, it’s like that song Naïve Bravado in a way, you’ve got sort of a
very dark song, but I’ve written it in such a way that I would hope it
sounds bright and it sounds like it wants to grab your attention. So,
you know, there are songs on the record about infidelity. There are
songs on the record about so-called “slacktivism”, the idea of online
communities being activists by pressing buttons and the kind of
self-satisfaction culture. That’s something that I think everyone can
relate to - you don’t have to be left, or right, or wrong, but everyone
can notice that that is a real feature in modern life. We exist online
and virtual lives are really important, but they also have this great
limitation where there’s a massive amount of smug communication that
goes on - with good intentions, but without any kind of measurable
outcome. So people join up and they click on surveys and they ‘like’
things and they get involved and they say to their followers and all the
people that are friends with them, ‘Look what I’m doing to fix this.’
Basically, we have arrived at a time where broadcasting who you are and
what you’re about is sometimes seen as more important than doing
anything about it. So that’s a shallow culture, even though in amongst
those people are a lot of really good people. It’s a strange
development.
Is there anything that you read that inspired these thoughts or was it an original observation?
I don’t think it’s an original observation. I think it’s just part of
our lives. It’s the truth to a lot of us. And we’re all on both sides
of the equation. Hopefully you do actually do something to change the
things that you’re concerned about. Maybe online activism is just part
of it, but as far as it being a means to an end, well, it clearly isn’t.
People signing a petition will not change things. If people sign a
petition and then are actively going expressing their frustration,
writing letters, the whole picture, that does change things, but online
commitment is only one small part of the picture. So you look at things
like ‘Kony’ as being a perfect example of good intentions, but
ultimately pointless outrage.
You've said: "School never taught us about the real Aboriginal experience, or the real effects of colonisation". Please talk about some of the books that have taught you about the real Aboriginal experience and Aboriginal history.
Well I have actually read a bunch of books, but what I was saying in
that interview was actually that music played a big role in opening my
eyes up to that stuff. And I say the question is whether I understand
the situation faced by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, and I
clearly don’t. What I was pointing out was that music opened my eyes up
to this stuff in a way that school didn’t. Music like Public Enemy,
Tupac, the Geto Boys, American hip hop that talked about struggle and
Black culture and Black Power. Issues that were facing them in the
States made me think about what was equivalent that was happening in
Australia. And I started thinking about what the attitudes towards
Indigenous people were like and I became very fascinated by it. But as
far as understanding it, well, I’ve never walked a mile in the shoes of
an Aboriginal person, so I have to act from a position of white
privilege. And I guess that’s where I stand with the hosts, the
custodians, the people that have always cohabited the country that we’re
in. You know, there’s such a massive wealth of knowledge and talent and
wisdom that we close our minds to when we don’t take Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islanders’ views into account and that is really related
to almost everything, from art to agricultural practices, through to
things like who the hell is represented by our flag. So I could never,
ever go out there and say that in any way do I know the real Aboriginal
experience. I would never say that.
Want to name a couple of books?
No. I’ve gotten a hell of a lot more understanding and experience
from talking to people and being involved on a person-to-person level
than from reading academic books. They’re very good and I’m very
interested in them, but I’ve only ever got a sense of historical events
from books. For understanding and getting an idea of what it is like to
walk around a shop and be followed in every single shop that you go in
because you have a black skin and you’re an Aboriginal person, that
comes from talking to people and realising what are the little ways that
prejudice affects.
As a recent immigrant to Australia, I've seen it as important
to learn the real history of the country and support its traditional
owners. I see it as like a pathetic attempt to "pay the rent" for the
privilege of being here, which is partly why I run the Australian Aboriginal Hip Hop Facebook page that uploads the weekly Indij hip hop show for free download. Is this what you were getting at when you said: "An
awareness of something as important as our relationship to Indigenous
Australia is more than a choice, it’s a responsibility." Or could it really be anything?
I think it could be anything. Responsibility, I think of that,
because what informs us as people is our identity and our identity gives
us a sense of place, it gives us a sense of person. It’s the true kind
of perception that you have of the place that you’re from. It’s not the
bullshit patriotism and nationalism that quite often infects our
society. It’s not that shallow, racist expression of who should be here
and who shouldn’t, you know, you’re making a judgement call. The real
thing that gives you a real sense of what it is like to be an Australian
is really being connected with your identity. And if you’re connected
with your identity, then you understand your place in the scheme of
things. And for the Europeans who have come to Australia - and I guess
I’m speaking about the majority of Australians here - it’s understanding
that we’ve had a short period of time here versus thousands of years
for Indigenous people. Not that that’s the only thing, I think that’s
just one of the things that would help you understand your place in the
scheme of things. But it actually informs your identity. So if you have
prejudiced views towards Aboriginal people because you have some
stereotypical and complete bullshit assumption that they are… You come
to lazy assumptions about Aboriginal people because you hear things that
[shock jock] Alan Jones says or you hear stories about alcohol and you
tar everybody with the same brush. Then you genuinely do not understand
what makes up our identity. That’s why I feel like it’s a responsibility
to understand that. I guess in the same way I think it’s a
responsibility to appreciate the way that immigration and different
cultures and ethnicities have enriched the country. It’s not all good,
of course it’s not all good. That’s the problems with these
conversations, they become so black and white, the people arguing do not
keep an open mind to the negative impact of it. But people who are
against it are so blindly against it that you forget the humanity of it.
And I believe that our culture is definitely enrichened with the
multicultural contribution. So the existence of all these different
cultures has opened up our eyes to all these different experiences and
we become rich by that, we have a better understanding of the world and
also an appreciation for the differences that make up our overall
identity. And if you’re honest about that you don’t need to say it’s all
good. You go, yeah, there’s bad, but the good will hopefully outweigh
the bad. In my opinion, definitely that’s the case.
Unfortunately for most people appreciating multiculturalism stretches only as far as trying the different foods.
Yeah, definitely. The funny thing is, that’s a starting point. I
would hope that different foods is like a tiny door that’s ajar. It’s
like that perception that a particular kind of people, like say, I don’t
know, Afghani people. Because there’s war there and there are really
extreme views there - a lot of which are unconscionable in my opinion,
attitudes to women and whatnot, things that I find very hard to
reconcile myself with - the lazy and the easy thing to do is just assume
that everybody is like that and as soon as you start meeting some of
those people, you realise they’re very gentle people and very kind
people and the people that I’ve met have always been open-armed and
welcoming. So it gives you an appreciation for what things are really
like - not what’s easy and what sort of suits your own prejudice.
Speaking of attitudes towards women, it seems like misogyny
is the biggest millstone around rap’s neck. What are your thoughts on
that?
Yeah, rap music has always been very direct. You don’t always wrap
things up in a poetic way. I guess that’s why “bitch” is such a common
term in, particularly American, hip hop. I would hope that with an eye
to understanding that perpetuating those kind of terms is a direct sign
of disrespect to your own sister or your mother, your grandmother… I
mean surely there’s a relationship there where they would be horrified
that people would ever refer to their family like that. Hip hop needs to
pick its game up on that front because hip hop has always come from a
place of struggle and gender has always had its own role in struggle and
there’s the dominance of males in our society, from wages through to
positions of influence. It is something that is changing and it changes
with understanding of how ridiculous it is to ever believe that a gender
or discrimination on gender is just as bad as discrimination on
anything. To put people into a box that allows you to stand over it, it
allows you to feel as if you have some sense of superiority over it and
that just allows you to have a form of oppression. Hip hop has always
been fighting oppression so you would think that hip ho would embrace
it, but you know, but I don’t believe that I can be a spokesperson for
hip hop. But I would hope that that will change, for sure.
You’d hope that people would see the parallels between racism and sexism.
For sure. The same with homophobia. There have been massive changes
and leaps forward in attitudes towards homophobia in hip hop in the past
10 years, definitely. And I’ve definitely been involved with it, just
watching American artists come out. Coming out against homophobia,
coming out for gay marriage, these things are massively significant if
you look at the attitudes that previously existed. We have to recognise
that change and feel like that’s a cause for optimism.
You have said:
"I was asked to write about the state of hip hop in Australia. I'd
prefer to shine a light on what may be the future of it: Indigenous Hip
Hop." You have put your money where your mouth is, signing Sky'high and
The Last Kinection. You have also signed Indigenous artists up to tour
with you. Please describe what the following artists mean to you:
- Yung Warriors
Yung Warriors are cool, they’ve got a lot of potential, they’ve
written a few good songs, they stand for something. It’s good music,
that’s pretty much it. The fact that they have an Indigenous heritage is
something of interest, but I booked them because I like their music. I
just wanted to see them play live. I haven’t seen them play live so I
was being a bit selfish.
- King Brown
I don’t know too much about King Brown, but he sent some music across
to us and I hadn’t really heard too much of him. But yeah, we’re
playing music and out for giving people a chance and I’m looking forward
to seeing what he does in Katoomba. [
Green Left interviewed King Brown
here.]
- Sky'high
Sky’high is an outrageously talented vocalist. She’s got a great
sense of song. She comes from a tough background which definitely
informs what she talks about and how she carries herself but underneath
that is actually just a great artist. That’s why Elefant Traks got
involved, we really believe in her. You can never predict the future -
it’s the same with any artist - so we can’t know that she’s going to go
on and become a massive artist, but at the same time it’s my firm belief
that that is there for her if she wants to take it. If she has the
discipline and the focus and the drive to do it, she has the talent -
which is not something I can say for a lot of people.
- Jimblah
The proof in the pudding about my belief in Jimblah is the fact that I
have been very vocally supportive of him since his record came out on a
competing label. So you can’t say that I’ve been trumping him because I
have an agenda. I just have a massive love for the dude. He’s one of
those artists that could be an international success just because
there’s no one like him. He has an incredible singing voice, an amazing
flow, his productions are really interesting and cool and wonky. He
should be fucking huge. But the feeling is definitely in place in
Australia… he doesn’t make songs where you’re going getting pissed on a
Friday night with your buddies and wearing hoodies and jumping up in
the air and having barbecues and stuff, which is a lot of the kind of
stuff that is the most successful in Australia. And I don’t mean to
diminish that, because in a way that’s a mirror or a reflection of what a
lot of people’s values are. And so it does get picked up because people
really appreciate that spirit. Jimblah’s not about that, but his talent
is unbelievable, I’m a huge fan.
- The Last Kinection, who sang on their latest album about
playing to tiny audiences. I wanted to talk about how the standard of
Indigenous hip hop is incredible and yet it has such a small audience.
It’s definitely lifting up in quality all the time. I think that in
past times many of the artists that would have ordinarily come through
those channels, the more popular channels where Bliss and Eso and Illy
have come through, is partly because there has just been a disconnect
between those scenes. So you’ve got Aboriginal artists out there and in
the past they just didn’t have a connection and so they haven’t come
through with the wave of artists that have come through. And also there
was more of a disconnect between the cultures before, but then… All
through the history of hip hop developing in Australia, there ’s
examples of Aboriginal emcees and B-Boys and Djs who have been involved
but it’s just never been a big deal. As it’s blown up, it’s become much
more stark. It’s so bleeding obvious that there’s a real disparity
there. And a gap, which in some ways reflects the broader Australian
public. At the same time we have a strange and surreal manifestation of
the hip hop scene here, where you have the majority of the artists being
white, which surely is a bit of an anomaly in the global culture of hip
hop. That’s not to say that those white artists don’t have a role, you
can’t look at these things so harshly. But at the same time it is as
clear as day to me that the stories that artists like Jimblah and the
Last Kinection have to tell are so important, beyond just the obvious
musicality and the great songs that they’re writing. They have an
importance that goes way beyond Australian audiences and it’s a story
that international audiences want to hear. That’s why I wrote that
article and why I believe that much of the future will be Indigenous
artists is because fundamentally we want to hear that story.
Yep, that’s certainly the case with the Aboriginal Hip Hop
page - we have a huge following from overseas. Payback Records boss
Nathan Lovett-Murray has also said the interest from overseas in
Aboriginal hip hop is a lot stronger than it is in Australia, which is
what partly inspired me to start uploading Munk’s show to the internet.
You have talked about the rise of racism among white Australian hip hop
fans. As a non-Australian, my reaction is WTF? Don't they know it was
originally a black artform? West Sydney Aboriginal rapper Sesk told Green Left
he sees a big divide between the white and black hip hop scenes in
Australia, that they move in mutually exclusive circles, and that he
wants to bring them together. What are your thoughts?
Yep that comes back to identity. How do you understand hip hop if you
don’t even understand where it came from? When you go to iTunes and buy
a song and then go to a festival and dance around, there’s no
obligation to have a knowledge about where all that stuff comes from.
Well, maybe that’s the way it should be.
There’s no need for it. However, it gives you so much better an
understanding of things if you do have some of that appreciation because
you just understand where everything fits, you know. You understand
that the new school hip hoppers exist because there are old school hip
hoppers and you get a sense of how everything moves. But I’m just
mostly into it because those things have made up experiences that will
never be done again. It’s like maybe looking back at the music from the
Fifties and Sixties and seeing all those events that changed everything
forever. It’s fascinating. It makes it so much more exciting. Then
again, when hip hop becomes pop music it just becomes disposable and
that’s not to say that every song that gets popular is disposable, but
the kind of people that enjoy it, get it , enjoy it, move on. You don’t
have that same kind of affection for it. I guess that’s where you kind
of differentiate from the tourist participant in the culture with the
people who are really passionate about it. I guess that’s the same for
everything.
The late Black Panther leader Geronimo ji-Jaga, Tupac Shakur’s godfather, said
of the attempt of corporations to subvert hip hop: "Hip-hop is
indigenous and it’s powerful and it scares the hell out of these people,
right? So, they have to get control and employ Cointelpro-like
tactics... After the leadership of the Black Panther Party was attacked
at the end of the ’60s and the early ’70s, throughout the Black and
other oppressed communities, the role models for up-coming generations
became the pimps, the drug dealers, etc. This is what the government
wanted to happen. The result was that the gangs were coming together
with a gangster mentality, as opposed to the revolutionary progressive
mentality we would have given them.” What are your thoughts?
I can’t see how you’d argue with that. But you do it from a level of
individuals advancing their own cause and, to me, that moves the culture
of hip hop away from something that is really closely connected with a
struggle and those social movements and it becomes more a part of the
broader capitalist system where it’s every man for himself or woman for
herself. And that’s pretty much what we ascribe to as a planet, bar a
bunch of countries. I mean it seems to be that collectively,
particularly the Western world has agreed that this is the best system.
And so it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that popular music forms
would gradually work parallel to that and adopt the same values. You see
less of that collective good and more of that individual greed. I’m not
saying these things as if they’re inherently evil, because I am part of
that. But definitely from a big picture perspective, that’s I guess how
I feel about the way hip hop has gone. But I also would like to say
that in some respects, you know, I read some essays which talked about
how gospel music and early jazz was really linked with Black struggle
and how, over time, when jazz sort of turned into scatting and different
forms - bebop - things that took Black culture away from having those
songs of struggle put into words. So it was clear what it was about, it
was really connected with that struggle. There was a backlash against
these new forms of jazz, where people were saying ‘What’s the point of
it? It’s not about Black identity, it’s just about the music form.’ And I
think that there was a feeling of betrayal in the people that were
fighting for equal rights. But as time wore on, it became very clear
that bebop and scatting, despite not being clearly identifiable with the
struggle, were examples of Black excellence. How that influenced the
entire world, arts and music all over the world and that all came from
the excellence exhibited by these jazz musicians. So in a way, I guess
that’s very clearly a foot forward for equal rights and progresses the
struggle, because it just puts its cards on the table, it says, ‘Look at
this. You do not consider us equals? Well, good, because actually we’re
better than you.’ So maybe, just maybe, the fact that commercial hip
hop has seemed to abandon that history of struggle, maybe it’s not
something that we should all roundly condemn. Particularly not white
people. It felt really illuminating, that story, because it was just
like, holy shit, that’s amazing. Because you’re not on the frontline
with placards, but you’re doing it, it’s in your life, you’re not
pausing for anything, you’re just proving it by your actions.
To what extent do you think growing up as a hip hop fan as a
white, red-haired kid in the Blue Mountains made you sympathise for
people who may be perceived as "outsiders"?
I don’t know why the hell I became interested in hop hop culture. As a
kid I had blond hair, my beard is red, I don’t identify on that level.
That’s only a small aside, I totally get what you’re saying. I don’t
think I’ve ever identified as being part of anything. I’ve always felt
like a bit of an outsider. But I think that most people do. Maybe I’m
wrong, but I’m sure a lot of people do.
Well, I guess it’s all down to perception. You've always been
a strong supporter of refugees. What did you make of the Houston report
last week and its aftermath, with parliament voting for offshore
processing?
Like another nail in the coffin of our conscience. Like a hammer that
is just beating down mercilessly on us having enlightenment. It is
beating down on our path towards enlightenment. Pushing us back. You
feel like as you get older and as we grow as people we learn, but [when]
there are all these things, you feel like it just makes you question
about whether you go forward and improve as a people. And I haven’t
lived for hundreds of years, I don’t have that context of how we
constantly repeat ourselves with the same prejudicial views that are
effectively the same that humanity has always had, you know, mistrust of
strangers, motivated by fear, all these things that manifest in modern
life, the same way that they would have always affected us. But at the
same time we develop technologies and we learn a little bit more about
science that enlightens us on so many different levels. But then there
are things that, politically speaking, it just makes you depressed.
Do you think the main problem is that we just don’t have
accountable democracy? Governments get voted in every few years and then
do whatever the hell they like. Do you think things would improve if
our democratic system was reformed so that politicians were held
accountable for each bill that they voted on?
But it seems like that’s what we’ve got. Where they’re taking
decisions that are going to deliver them numbers when they do the polls.
But do they pay attention to those focus groups? It seems like they break the promises as soon as they get in.
Yeah, for sure, but those promises are all based on polls as well.
But then they break them.
But it’s a lot easier to make those promises when you are trying to
convince someone of electing you into power. When you get into power
there’s a whole bunch of things that you’ve got to sacrifice and
compromise and then they look at their polls to work out which ones to
cut off first.
That’s because they’re not accountable.
It’s like a dog chasing its tail. The accountability is going to be
the same for the next person who gets voted in. You know, you’re going
to have a constant cycle of politicians who aren’t able to deliver the
things that they needed to get them across the line to begin with. I
don’t know, I think the conversation about what the best system is or
how to make democracy work is such a huge philosophical discussion and I
am just not the person to have the answers there. I’ll chime in, but…
Well, no one has the answer.
Yeah, absolutely, if you had a system where the elected leaders of
the day actually had a sense of the common good and didn’t have to
subscribe to democratic values it would be much more efficient, things
would happen much quicker. But you’d have to put all your trust into
people who end up being Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin. By the same
token, democracy on paper is brilliant, but it’s also very slow. It
reflects ugly views of people.
But if you don’t accept those views then you probably want something more elitist.
Yeah that’s right, but I think it’s everyone’s responsibility to not accept views, otherwise how would things change?
Through better education. Through better media.
These things are absolutely true. You inform people better.
You’ve spoken for a long time so thanks so much for taking
the time to speak with us. I have just one more question. Afrika
Bambaataa’s concept of the five elements of hip-hop are MCing, DJing,
breaking, graffiti writing and the oft-forgotten fifth element –
knowledge. To what extent do you think artists often forget this fifth
element?
I think everybody’s guilty of that. It sometimes takes a wise person
to realise that they’re in a position where people listen to them. So
you can get caught up in your own little world and forget that you’re
part of a community and the whole community operates better when
everybody is considerate and they’re considered in their actions. And
knowledge is the thing that feeds that considered action. Because you
have a consideration of the consequences of your actions. And maybe you
have an idea of the historical relevance of the situation that you’re
in, which also informs the way you share your influence. But I wouldn’t
say that I’m immune from a lack of knowledge. I mean I forget words all
the time. I don’t know enough of things. I can’t do everything and it’s
frustrating. So I’m in the same boat as everybody else in not honouring
that concept of knowledge as much as I should.
Well it would be a fool who thought they had mastered it.
For sure. I also learnt from years writing with The Herd, I think I
came to a bit better understanding that you’re constantly complaining,
constantly talking about things and quite often it comes from a very
egotistical place, like as if you’re able to judge others. And the
judgement of others is the downfall of everyone. I mean, it’s like the
Christians who fight so hard against gay marriage and yet will say,
‘Thou shalt not judge.’ The instinct to judge is a flawed one, I mean
I’m the first to admit that I’m just working my way through this.
Is there anything you'd like to add?
Well, we didn’t really talk about the album that much and that’s fine
with me because I’ll be talking about that enough as it is.
You must get sick of interviews.
Actually, even though today’s, like, really busy and I’m going to be
here at work late, particularly because this interview’s gone on for
quite a while, the interviews like this where we’re talking about
general things and having a discussion are actually quite enjoyable, I
like them, so thanks for that.
Well it’s been great speaking to you.
Yeah cheers man, thank you.
Green Left will be buying a copy of the album. To win our copy, send your name and address to CriticalFilms@gmail.com before it's released on October 12. Winner picked at random.
A man, named locally as Linford House (pictured
right), 19, was arrested yesterday after the image (left) appeared
online. The words on the right image have been written on by a third
party, who posted it online
